Listen now on: Spotify | SoundCloud | Apple | YouTube
What’s changed in Vanuatu’s localisation journey since 2019?
How did last year’s earthquake test local leadership and coordination?
And where is progress strongest across the seven domains of localisation?
In a new episode of I Think You’re On Mute, produced in partnership with PIANGO, we unpack fresh research carried out with VANGO on how localisation has evolved in Vanuatu since our 2019 baseline.
One year on from the earthquake, co-hosts Beth Eggleston and Pamela Combinido-Elfa sit down with local research consultant Linda Kenni and Shirley Abraham from VANGO to share insights from those at the heart of the response, looking at what’s shifted, what’s stalled, and what still needs to change to make localisation a reality.
Podcast host and guests
Co-Host: Beth Eggleston
Beth is the Director of the Humanitarian Advisory Group (HAG) and co-founded the organisation in 2012. She has worked in the humanitarian sector specialising in civil-military coordination and humanitarian reform for the last two decades and has field experience in Afghanistan, Liberia, Tonga, Costa Rica, Laos PDR, Timor-Leste, and Vietnam.
Co-Host: Pamela Combinido-Elfa
Pam is a much-loved leader at HAG and brings more than 10 years of combined research and evaluation experience. Her work spans a range of thematic areas including localisation, disaster risk reduction, diversity and inclusion, child protection, and gender equality. She is passionate about bridging evidence and practice and working alongside other researchers, practitioners, and humanitarian and development organisations.
Pam is based in Manila and occasionally brings banana chips – a HAG team favourite – to Melbourne from the Philippines.
Guest: Linda Kenni
Linda is a Pacific-based practitioner with 10+ years in humanitarian action, disaster risk reduction, climate change adaptation, and applied research. She strengthens community resilience, environmental and social safeguards, clean energy initiatives, and robust M&E.
Linda has led evaluations of women-led adaptation projects, facilitated DRR/climate awareness, and delivered policy-relevant research with the University of Adelaide, World Bank, Griffith University, and the Humanitarian Advisory Group across Vanuatu and other Pacific contexts.
Guest: Shirley Abrham
Shirley is the Secretary General of Vanuatu Non-Government Organizations (VANGO), the national umbrella body for all non-profit organizations and CSOs in Vanuatu.
Shirley is passionate about the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), prioritising community-led responses to humanitarian efforts, disaster preparedness, and resilience. She conducts various research projects advocating for human rights issues in Vanuatu, promoting local-led organizations, community-led programs, and increasing funding for community learning and education.
Podcast research and links
- Humanitarian Advisory Group | Localisation in Vanuatu: Demonstrating change
- Humanitarian Advisory Group | All localisation research reports
Podcast transcript
Beth: Before we begin, I’d like to acknowledge the Traditional Custodians and their ancestors of the unceded lands and waters on which we live, work and depend. We recognise all First Nations peoples around the world and celebrate their enduring connections to country, and pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another special episode of I Think You’re On Mute! I’m Beth Eggleston and this is a very special episode as I am joined by the fabulous Pam…I’ve finally convinced one of my HAG team members to be a guest co-host! I first met Pam in person in the Philippines where we ate quite a lot of Korean BBQ. We were doing research on the protection of civilians during conflict, and she’s been working with us ever since. Welcome Pam, how’s everything going in Manila, I hope things have settled down after the recent typhoons.
Pam: Hi Beth, it’s lovely to be here, although I might say that podcast really isn’t in my wheelhouse. I really love the behind the scenes, the writing and analysis, but I’m really excited to be here. I’m really good. It’s been a reflective week of writing and thinking for this project we’re working on understanding localisation in Vanuatu. How are you doing Beth?
Beth: I’m well, it’s busy getting towards the end of the year, but I have to admit I’m very excited to be able to hear about this work that you’re doing, and digging back into our favourite topic of locally led humanitarian response. Can you tell us a little bit more about what this? Project is about
Pam: Absolutely. So if you’re a member Beth back into 2018, Humanitarian Advisory Group has a proposed a new framework called Measuring Localisation Framework, and it’s a framework that’s been used in 20 countries, including Vanuatu. So with that exercise, Humanitarian Advisory Group and VANGO brought together civil society actors, international partners to understand what we mean by locally led action and where does Vanuatu stand in different domains. So we’re going to talk about that later, but it was an interesting time to reflect back on that study and understand what progress already exists, what are some of the persistent barriers that needs to be challenged, and what are some of the opportunities and aspirations in strengthening locally led humanitarian action in Vanuatu. I know these are all the questions, big topics to discuss, so just super interesting to hear from the many perspectives of humanitarian actors inn Vanuatu I think terms of the shifts that they’ve been seeing as well.
Beth: That’s right, and we are going to be hearing from some very special guests on this podcast today. So we’re going to be joined by Linda and independent expert from Vanuatu that we worked with for many years and also Shirley from the Vanuatu Association of NGOs. They both been been right at the heart of this work. They’ve been working closely I know with you Pam, as you’ve sought to seek reflections for people who have been involved in recent humanitarian responses. And we also know that we’re coming up to the one year mark since the earthquake, so it’s going to be really interesting to understand how the localisation agenda has progressed in Vanuatu. So grab you a cup of coffee tea or your beverage of choice and settle in. This is a special episode, At the heart of the response: Vanuatu and the path to localisation. So I’m going to handover to my new co-host now and you’re going to be able to hear her interview with Linda, as she explores where localisation has been going in Vanuatu.
Pam: Hi Linda, it’s so great to have you here. Thank you so much for taking the time to have a chat with me today about this recent research that we’ve been doing together with VANGO in Vanuatu. Before we ask questions in discuss the research, can you quickly introduce yourself and give us a little bit about your background?
Linda: Thank you Pam, nice to see you. My name is Linda, I’m from Vanuatu, from an island called Tanna. I have been doing a lot with HAG since 2016 and it has been in the space of localisation. Currently, I am doing some under the Ministry for Internal Office, under the project for urban planning. We are building emergency shelters that are being built by City. I work with a core engineering group. My work is safeguard and environmental specialist. From time to time, I am always happy do work with HAG, I’ve been doing that every year. HAG has always been giving me that opportunity to work with them and I loved working with HAG. I never say no to working with HAG in any of their projects. HAG is doing a fine job. They’re one of the organisation that have changed a lot in localisation space for Vanuatu and they are continuing now with VANGO and hopefully, they will not stop there but they will continue to take that localisation training to its supposed to be in the future. So yeah, so my background is doing a lot of NGO work, doing a lot of community work, doing a lot of disaster working in relation to these different studies that we do to see how can we respond better? So, thank you.
Pam: Oh, good, I think there’s a lot to say here about your experience Linda. So as you’ve mentioned, you’ve been part of the initial baseline study back in 2018 and 2019 when Humanitarian Advisory Group, VANGO and Linda also look at what is the progress or what’s the progress of localisation in Vanuatu at the time when the sector was trying to define what localisation means or what’s the evidence to say that localisation is happening. So this was way back 2019, and that 6 years ago Linda. So how would you describe where we are right now? So the 2019 baseline, and then we did our progress review. How would you describe the progress in between? Would you say we’re just setting out, or are we actually halfway up the mountain, or are we at the point where we’re enjoying the view from the top?
Linda: That’s a really good question when you put it like that, localisation as a journey. I think first of all this localisation study, I think truly began the moment we started asking those questions to the stakeholders, to the government, to the INGOs. Because for me, I’ve seen that when we started talking or asking questions about localisation, that’s 5 years ago, it started putting those ideas, those reflections from those INGOs, from those global NGOs to actually see them, where are we doing things correctly? Or do we know some of the things that we are not doing are coming out in these questions, so that kind of like open their minds up. In short, I will say we are looking at like it’s a journey, like a trek, I will say we’ve left the community or the valley and then we are now moving up slowly, slowly we are leaving the basecamp, and we are out and moving our slowly to where we want to go. But we have not reached that stage yet because we still have some challenges. We still have some obstacles. We still have some things that are still putting burden on our ownselves. We want to move for we are being held back. So I would say that we have moved – and we are moving forward.
Pam: Ah, I love how you describe it Linda, like we’re moving forward, we’re not at the basecamp scam, and we’re trekking along slowly. I’d love to hear any specific ways that you’ve seen progress like, can you give me one example where you really see, wow, this is a progress from where we were at 2019 compared to how things are in 2025? Do you have any examples or maybe story that you could share just to illustrate that progress in the journey?
Linda: Okay, so if take you back to 5 years ago when we did the study on localisation, we had our own definition. So what did localisation meant? Others had different definitions of localisation. I think the type of definition we use to describe what localisation we meant when we were asking questions that has really, I can say that it has spread some of the ways that I see that we’ve improved. When I say we, it means the INGOs, local NGOs, the government, whoever is. I think one of the areas we have really improved in is we have a really we have not clearly understand the language. I mean, the language around locally led. We are not only implementing, but we are understanding that language, and that language has helped us to implement better, to be able to link the implementation activities to the definition of localisation. It truly was, in a way to finding us, that is who we are, that is who is what we want to be, and that is where we want to go. Another way we progress, we now see donors giving direct funding to maybe just a few, but this is a really good progress. It hasn’t been there 5 years ago. Now, in some obvious feeling now has direct funding from DFAT to Vanuatu Society of People with Disability and that has really them with their activities. Not only peace time activities but mostly the activities for preparation towards disasters for people with disability.
Pam: All right, Linda, so we’ve been doing this research for the past few months already, and we’ve done a lot of consultations with civil society organisations, the government and international partners, with all of those consultations and interviews, was there anything that surprised you or challenged your assumptions during the research?
Linda: Okay, I think this question may be maybe true to someone who’s from outside who is doing the study really will say, oh I am surprised with this, this, this but for me, from here being here, having a lot of discussions, and I’ve been in a lot of evaluations, this are not really surprising to me, hearing what they are saying to me. But one of the things that may be a positive thing that I’ve noticed is, when it came to capacity, we talked about capacity, and we can say that we always have the capacity, capability, it has aways been there. We know our context, we know our people, we know the language, we know a lot of the needs in the community, but I will say that one of the positives, you can say, surprise is, you know, how those capacity is already here. But what we are missing, we are missing resources, permission. When I say we are still missing resources and permission, what I mean is, we would like to go out and do more. When we are under a certain structure for example, INGOs have a certain structures where you have to follow through to get those funding. That sort of like limits us, it’s not giving us the permission to go out and do more response as much as we want. And then we lack those resources, because we don’t have those resources, those they advise or whatever you can call it, that also limits us. Having said that, even though we have very few resources, if I may say, having that capability has helped us to continue to respond to all the communities as much as we can with those limited resources. We will continue responding until when we don’t have any more resources. But having the limited resources has not stopped us from responding, and that is one of the good things about people in Vanuatu, from the national even down to the grassroots, what you have, you share. You know, that’s just who we are. Can just add another thing, the last thing that I would love to add-on to what I mentioned earlier is, if only we in a world where, you know, people can shift the mindset, the mindset of localisation, shifting localisation. Localisation will only work best if we re-design that power, we re-design that power, we change that power, we make that power work more towards favour of people who are doing this locally led responses. If we can not only redesign that power, but also the process that comes with that power. If we can redesign, also I think, and then not really focusing on training, because we keep having that excuse, they need to have more training, training. Why do we need to have them more training? We are facing this disasters like every year. We have come accustomed to this disasters, and we already know what to do. We just need that power and that process to be changed, to move quickly to help and to respond to these people within the 48 and 72 hours because, if you ask me, it’s always one month later, and you agree with the first response to the community. Thank you.
Pam: Thanks again, Linda. That framing of localisation as a journey is so helpful to understand that way back in 2019, there’s been a lot of slow progress as you mentioned now that we’re in 2025. Any other thoughts, Linda?
Linda: One of the ways that you can see that localisation has really caused spiral, like everyone is really trusting what localisation is you can see when like in the past, you will see what there’s a disaster, you will see all the internationals flying in and their sitting there and they’re giving instructions. Now that is no longer there. You have the government under NDMO leading, you have the INGOs coming into the table and getting instructions from NDMO and then from there it goes down to the province, from the province, it goes down to area councils and into the community. We are doing our own decisions, we are doing our own assessments and deciding on what we see best for the community and also what we see best for its INGOs. So in the end, the NDMO, will say these two can partner together because with a partnership they can respond better, so all of those is happening inside – we are no longer leading that from outside.
Pam: Excellent, I think that’s super interesting way of seeing that there is a lot of direction from the government on how response should go and how international actors should position themselves, and this brings need to make next question to you. Linda, if you could give one piece of advice to international partners working in Vanuatu based on what you’ve seen in the progress of localisation, what would it be?
Linda: Okay, one advice to the international actors who may already have those experiences moving from responding in other countries outside, but it’s always the good to respect the structures that we have here. It’s always good to let the locals lead it. It’s always good to come in, listen and see where you can come into support. Let the locals tell you where they will be needing new help or you support, and it can be either national level, at the provincial level and at the community level. But it’s always good to respect the structures and see how you can come into support.
Pam: Yeah, super interesting way of framing things and Linda, you know Vanuatu has a lot more experience when it comes to crisis and disasters, sometimes overlapping even with experience of tropical cyclone Harold, with COVID-19 and there was a lot of discussions that without international partners in country, you know, people in Vanuatu, caring for each other at the same time asking international partners on ways that they can appropriately support those who are affected by crisis. So I know we can talk more about this Linda, but thank you so much for bringing to light that important perspective that is about understanding that the community themselves are already doing something, it’s about international partners coming in supporting and strengthening that further as well. So thank you so much.
Linda: Thank you so much for having me, it’s been a great pleasure. Yeah, I look forward to having more on this discussions later, so thank you Pam.
Pam: Wow, that’s a lot of insights from Linda. The way she described the journey of localisation in Vanuatu, since the beginning that she was involved in the baseline study and now that we’re doing the progress review. Our listeners might be wondering why is she talking about capacity, leadership and other areas when we talk about localisation. And just a quick background, you’ll read it in the report, that we’re talking about the 7 domains of localisation, and that includes leadership, participation, funding, capacity, coordination and complementary, as well as policy influence.
Beth: Thank you so much, Pam. It’s great to hear from Linda and those reflections. I agree that they’re so rich, and it’s amazing to think of how far processes have evolved since 2019 when we did that original baseline. And I’m really interested to hear from Shirley as well and hear from her point of view, how she feels things are going in Vanuatu in terms of how that power shift is actually happening.
Pam: I’m pleased to welcome my second guest Shirley Abraham. Hi Shirley, welcome, how are you today?
Shirley: I am good, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to share my experience on the localisation in Vanuatu.
Pam: It’s a pleasure as well Shirley. Before we begin, can you quickly introduce yourself to listeners?
Shirley: So my name, Shirley Abraham and I am the Chief Executive Officer for one of the associations of NGOs, VANGO. I started with that role since the last 2 years. I have been in the NGO space for I think over a decade, working with different programmes working with different NGOs. I have background working with youth organisation for a very long time, then then I moved to education, and then I’ve joined VANGO in the last 2 years. So yes, I’ve done a few research and I was part of the localisation baseline in 2019, and so it’s great to see you know, the progress of localisation from 2019 to current.
Pam: Such rich experience Shirley. Can you tell us more about VANGO? What does VANGO do? What’s the mission of the organisation? In what are some of your focus areas?
Shirley: VANGO is the umbrella body of all the NGOs in Vanuatu. VANGO is founded in Vanuatu since 1991 and has been through different journeys. At the moment, there has been a lot of progress in the work of VANGO since the last 2 years. We were able to produce a directory of all NGOs in Vanuatu and that includes the INGOs and the community-based organisations. We’re able to also produce our own materials around good governance, because this is where we work with our members to strengthen good governance and institution strengthening. We are able to put together a reporting template for NGOs specifically because the government is not recognising the work of NGOs. We are trying to capture the work of NGOs in a report and then, you know, we can highlight the good work of VANGO.
Pam: Oh, that’s so impressive the work that you’re doing Shirley. You mentioned we partnered with VANGO back in 2019 to do the localisation baseline and now we’re working with them again to understand the progress of localisation in Vanuatu 2025 together with Linda who we’ve spoken to earlier. So now I want to ask you, looking back at your experience and also VANGO’s experience over the past few years, which domain in the localisation framework do you feel show the strongest progress?
Shirley: I would say that we felt that the progress was made mainly on the partnership, and this is because we have seen that the international NGOs are now having their localisation, the localisation plans, strategies and therefore, you can see that partnership has been made, especially INGOs working with national NGOs, and that is one strong progress that I can do around those different domains.
Pam: It’s so interesting because we’ve also heard from Linda that to her, if localisation was a journey, you can really see so much progress from where it started, in looking now in 2025. And among those progress that she mentioned as well, is that partnership and leadership domains, which speaks a lot to what you mentioned around those localisation plans and having more strategies to support their efforts as well. And by their mean international actors. So that’s the strongest progress. What about the challenges, which area did you have the I guess the hardest challenge to overcome in looking at those 7 domains?
Shirley: Yeah, so you know, there is somewhat progress in other areas as well. This is to acknowledge that you know, the INGOs and the donor partners have also made an attempt and also looking at localisation as well. So we can see slow progress in other domains as well, but one of the challenging one is the funding. When I talk about funding, I would see that you can still see the donor requirements, you can see that the due diligence requirements that is like way beyond the capacity of getting a national or even community-based organisation to be able to meet those requirements, meet those due diligence standards, and therefore, if we keep ongoing, you know, on that same direction, if there is no changes of how the donor partners and also INGOs are looking at requirements and looking at a lot of documentations, then a lot of the local civil society will just be left out. And for sure there is no other way we would help unless, you kind of like working with the national NGOs, one the strong national NGOs to support the small NGOs. So this I can say that even end of December, we are still talking with the donors where they come in with like 16 long pages of application form a proposal, for which I can say that, yes, there is still the requirement.
Pam: So looking at that Shirley, and you mentioned that part of their role of VANGO is supporting local NGOs, how has VANGOs approach change over the past few years in terms of supporting stronger local leadership and participation?
Shirley: So we at the VANGO secretary, we have ensured that you know, rather than, you know, the civil society they need support, rather than us, just telling especially within the local NGOS, so they do not need meet the requirements and then we can support them as the umbrella body or as the secretariate. So what we did over time and mainly was our strong focus this year, we employed a training and capacity support coordinator, and there will full-time is to meet with all the local NGOs and community-based organisation to support them to be able to improve their governance, to be able to improve their around the policies. Whatever the donor requires from them, we provide that support now. For us is to be able to gradually like support the targeting, like in 10 for this year, we are trying to support them to the level where they can be able to meet those donor requirements and some of which is having a bank account, having the financial policies, all the things. So VANGO is working on and we hope to see some progress, and we hope that some of these CSOs will be grant- ready by early next year.
Pam: That’s great and there’s a lot of work I’m sure involved in supporting local actors and you know, making sure that their visual aligns with the capacity support that they also require. So reflecting back on your experience and on the review process, were there moments when we’re doing the consultations with local national after as well, as international partners that surprise you? Like, were there anything that the share that was really striking for you as we did those consultations to understand the progress of localisation in Vanuatu?
Shirley: In my experiences and for the community based organisation, one thing that we’ve come to realise now, it’s kind of like not a surprise, but you know, we realise that the community-based organisation and national NGOs need a lot of support, a lot of holding their hands to be able to reach the level where they are able to get the donor funding. And so this is from the community-based and the national NGOs. When you look at the INGOs, they have a lot of resources, and for us, we have realised that they also are accountable as well to donor partners, and some of which is like the system like, you know. For us is understanding that they also need able to get grants and they able to get a lot of funding because there is systems in place. And this is something that for VANGO as an umbrella body, it’s kind of like you have a system here, and your civil societies like way down here so it’s kind of like for us, a lot of work to be able to elevate the civil society because from the perspective of INGOs, it’s not just like giving money, there is systems, there is policies and there is donor requirements of money from we say internationally, it has to go to another international organisation that is based overseas and that could be kind of there and to an NGO here, and so, yes, I think it’s really challenging, especially for VANGO to be able to put consistent support to ensure that all the locals and national NGOs are able to be grant ready and their capacity is another issue. Some of them, they’re working like 1 or 2 staff, or maybe only one person for local CBOs and so this is some of the challenges and realisation that it’s not easy.
Pam: Yeah exactly because we’re looking at different resources as well, like as you said, some of the local CBOs have 1 or 2 staff doing not only programme implementation, but they’re also doing partnership, admin, coordination and comms, so it’s all of these expectations versus the requirements as well to meet so it’s like hard to balance all of these. Now we’re on the one-year commemoration of the earthquake, can you reflect on how has the earthquake influenced local leadership in the way communities engage in humanitarian respond?
Shirley: I would say that from VANGO within the humanitarian programmes space, we were able to engage with our community-based organisation at this time, we’re looking at the response, and after the response, we were able to do some organisational capacity assessment to be able to find out like what are some of the capacity and the resources that they have. What are some of the support that they need in preparation towards areas, like we’re going through another cyclone season, how can they be able to better respond. For the international NGOs, I would say that they have also localisation plans, and I can see that around partnerships, they’re partnering up with the local and community-based organisations, so I believed that this also happening. I would say that maybe in a slow, slow progress, but for VANGO yes, definitely we are working on ensuring that, you know, after the earthquakes, we were able to assess some of the capacities, and now we’re looking at providing more subgrants to them, so they can be able to do more response work, you know, we’re entering the cyclone season.
Pam: And having that evidence to support the plan for capacity strengthening for local and national NGO and CBOs. You mention international actors, I’m curious to hear, if you could give one piece of advice to international partners working in Vanuatu, based on what you’ve seen in terms of localisation progress, what would it be?
Shirley: I would say that the supporting community-based organisation is more than just partnering with them. They need to give them funding, they need to fully resource them. In order for them to drive, they need a good funding support, which is not should be just activity, but it should be like funding administration cost, staff support as well as resources for the local and community-based organisation.
Pam: Right? And that’s so important but oftentimes overlooked in this climate of limited funding across the sector as well, so that’s such a very powerful reflection. Now we’re looking into what’s going to happen next. I guess I’m curious to hear what’s your hope for how the humanitarian sector will continue to evolve in Vanuatu moving forward?
Shirley: For VANGO, we would like to see local actors and community-based organisation be at the forefront of humanitarian response, humanitarian support. And therefore for us, our core focus for next year is to build their capacity, and that means that if we are doing that, we will also be advocating to the donors about giving funding to community-based organisation or local actors, because for VANGO side, we are working as well to ensure that all the support that they need, especially around good governance and also institutional strengthening, we will be getting funding for that and we will support them so that they are able to be grant ready. Because a lot of the time we see that donor partners they would have to give money it just for activities and this is one thing that will also be advocating that we don’t want to see the funds coming in just for activities. We at VANGO, will advocate for funding that comes in sufficient funding for staffing, as well as administration as well as the activities.
Pam: Great, there’s such a powerful reflectionand a good way to end this part of the podcast. Thank you again, Shirley, it’s lovely to have you here.
Shirley: Thank you, thank you for the opportunity.
Pam: Thank you so much to Linda and Shirley for spending time to chat with us today about all things locally led humanitarian action in Vanuatu, their reflections have been so, so insightful. I think what they’ve described really shows why we need to look at the 7 domains together, and while there’s been progress, there’s still a way to go towards localisation.
Beth: Yeah, I so agree, Pam. I mean, wow, what rich reflections. It is inspiring to see how localisation in Vanuatu has really evolved. And yet, yes, there is so much more that we still love to explore learn.
Pam: Absolutely, and I think from that conversation and all the conversations that we’ve had in the past few months, we can all agree that first local national leadership in humanitarian response is growing and that the progress is being widely recognised. Second point is there’s a real shift in how partnerships are being approached, international and local organisations are showing stronger intention to work together in more meaningful and equitable ways. And the last point, despite this momentum, limited and inconsistent resources remains the biggest challenge. Without long-term investment, it’s been acknowledged that it’s hard to sustain the progress that communities and local actors are working so hard to drive.
Beth: That’s so well said, Pam, and we really hope this episode has given you our valued listeners, a glimpse into the progress, the challenges and the opportunities in Vanuatu’s localisation journey. And maybe even sparked some ideas for future research or different ways you can take action. The full report will be available on our website, so be sure to check it out. Thank you Pam for taking the leap to co-host with me. It’s really a pleasure to have you here to keep your company and I’m sure it wasn’t as scary.
Pam: Thanks Beth, it was a pleasure hosting this episode with you.
Beth: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you’re interested in partnering with HAG on a future podcast episode, please visit our website and get in touch. This episode was made possible through our partnership with the Pacific Islands Association of NGOs PIANGO, and with support from the Global Support and Development Foundation.
The views shared in this episode are those of the speakers alone and do not necessarily reflect the positions of the organisations they represent.
This podcast was produced and recorded by Room3, a production company that works with not-for-profits and social enterprises, and supported by Green Letter Communications.
